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	<title>Comments on: Origen: Not Just for Heretics Anymore</title>
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	<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/</link>
	<description>Darrell Pursiful&#039;s blog</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Westmoreland-White</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Westmoreland-White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 03:50:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-513</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the clarification, Darrell.    By the way, I just tagged you for a thinking blogger award. Enjoy!

http://levellers.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/thinking-blogger-award/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarification, Darrell.    By the way, I just tagged you for a thinking blogger award. Enjoy!</p>
<p><a href="http://levellers.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/thinking-blogger-award/" rel="nofollow">http://levellers.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/thinking-blogger-award/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-512</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-512</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m wrong. Origen&#039;s not turning up on any calendars I check, including the Coptic. The only group that seems ready to canonize the guy is an outfit called &quot;the Church of the East,&quot; whose stated purpose is &quot;to forward the Yoga of Jesus to all humanity. Freedom from conditioned thinking is what Jesus came to teach humanity.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m wrong. Origen&#8217;s not turning up on any calendars I check, including the Coptic. The only group that seems ready to canonize the guy is an outfit called &#8220;the Church of the East,&#8221; whose stated purpose is &#8220;to forward the Yoga of Jesus to all humanity. Freedom from conditioned thinking is what Jesus came to teach humanity.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: D. P.</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>D. P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-511</guid>
		<description>Welcome, Mike! Thanks for your input. I&#039;ll look into Origen&#039;s place on the Coptic calendar.

Michael, I&#039;m not waiting for the pope to rehabilitate anybody, I&#039;m just celebrating the fact that it seems that he is. Nor am I waiting for &quot;official&quot; guidance from Rome or anywhere else as to when to celebrate Origen, just listening for sound guidance from wherever it may come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome, Mike! Thanks for your input. I&#8217;ll look into Origen&#8217;s place on the Coptic calendar.</p>
<p>Michael, I&#8217;m not waiting for the pope to rehabilitate anybody, I&#8217;m just celebrating the fact that it seems that he is. Nor am I waiting for &#8220;official&#8221; guidance from Rome or anywhere else as to when to celebrate Origen, just listening for sound guidance from wherever it may come.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-510</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 17:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-510</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t say that Tertullian&#039;s treated any better. He&#039;s quoted more often, but that&#039;s because he&#039;s more pithy -- by a long shot. Origen can be a dreary read. When he&#039;s stirring, the credit often belongs to the translators, not to the Man of Steel.

As for the calendar: In the east the anti-Origenist sentiment often runs stronger than in the West. The Copts, I believe, have him on the calendar. But the ambivalence is otherwise almost universal.

I think Origen was a beautiful man. I took some heat for including him among the Fathers in my book, The Fathers of the Church. But he certainly belonged there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t say that Tertullian&#8217;s treated any better. He&#8217;s quoted more often, but that&#8217;s because he&#8217;s more pithy &#8212; by a long shot. Origen can be a dreary read. When he&#8217;s stirring, the credit often belongs to the translators, not to the Man of Steel.</p>
<p>As for the calendar: In the east the anti-Origenist sentiment often runs stronger than in the West. The Copts, I believe, have him on the calendar. But the ambivalence is otherwise almost universal.</p>
<p>I think Origen was a beautiful man. I took some heat for including him among the Fathers in my book, The Fathers of the Church. But he certainly belonged there.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Westmoreland-White</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Westmoreland-White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 16:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-509</guid>
		<description>I learned to appreciate Origen from James Wm. McClendon, Jr.--that most gentle and ecumenical of Baptist theologians, may he rest in peace.   It always seemed very odd to me that Origen got worse treatment than Tertullian when the latter became a Montanist!

But why wait until the pope rehabilitates him? I&#039;m one Baptist who doesn&#039;t like Catholic bashing, but you don&#039;t hold to papal infallibility any more than I do.  And this pope is one of whom I am very suspicious because of the way he persecuted liberation theologians (especially Boff) as Cardinal Ratzinger.

And, even if one is celebrating the Catholic rehabilitation of Origen, why would one need to celebrate a feast day on a Catholic calendar? Why not the Eastern calendar?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned to appreciate Origen from James Wm. McClendon, Jr.&#8211;that most gentle and ecumenical of Baptist theologians, may he rest in peace.   It always seemed very odd to me that Origen got worse treatment than Tertullian when the latter became a Montanist!</p>
<p>But why wait until the pope rehabilitates him? I&#8217;m one Baptist who doesn&#8217;t like Catholic bashing, but you don&#8217;t hold to papal infallibility any more than I do.  And this pope is one of whom I am very suspicious because of the way he persecuted liberation theologians (especially Boff) as Cardinal Ratzinger.</p>
<p>And, even if one is celebrating the Catholic rehabilitation of Origen, why would one need to celebrate a feast day on a Catholic calendar? Why not the Eastern calendar?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 13:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-508</guid>
		<description>For an Orthodox rehab of Origen, check this link on the same blog:
http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/26/court-of-appeals/

I don&#039;t expect any clarification from Rome. Origen has appeared increasingly in magisterial documents, including papal encyclicals, and he&#039;s all over the Catechism. This is just the most explicit statement of what has long been implicit.

Origen&#039;s is a complicated case, since (as you say) his stated intention was to deliver the teaching of the catholic church. He didn&#039;t always succeed at that, but his failures may be understandable and excusable, given the times ?¢‚Ç¨‚Äù just as the condemnation of &quot;Origenism&quot; is understandable, given the later times.

The old Catholic Encyclopedia gives us an excellent rundown of the situation:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For an Orthodox rehab of Origen, check this link on the same blog:<br />
<a href="http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/26/court-of-appeals/" rel="nofollow">http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/26/court-of-appeals/</a></p>
<p>I don&#8217;t expect any clarification from Rome. Origen has appeared increasingly in magisterial documents, including papal encyclicals, and he&#8217;s all over the Catechism. This is just the most explicit statement of what has long been implicit.</p>
<p>Origen&#8217;s is a complicated case, since (as you say) his stated intention was to deliver the teaching of the catholic church. He didn&#8217;t always succeed at that, but his failures may be understandable and excusable, given the times ?¢‚Ç¨‚Äù just as the condemnation of &#8220;Origenism&#8221; is understandable, given the later times.</p>
<p>The old Catholic Encyclopedia gives us an excellent rundown of the situation:<br />
<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11306b.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: D. P.</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-507</link>
		<dc:creator>D. P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:41:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-507</guid>
		<description>If Aquilina is right and this represents a &quot;rehabilitation&quot; of Origen, I suspect there may be further clarification from Rome on that issue. I suppose the argument would be that (especially in De Principiis) Origen was not setting forth what he considered to be THE answers but, more speculatively, setting forth what he thought were some possibilities.

That might clear the way for saying, &quot;Yeah, for apologetic purposes Origen set forth some pretty heretical ideas as possible interpretations of the nature of souls and their eschatological destiny. But that doesn&#039;t make him a heretic, any more than asking difficult questions and exploring all the possibilities (based on the best information we have) makes one a heretic today. Remember: Origen&#039;s &lt;em&gt;intent&lt;/em&gt; was to remain within the consensual orthodoxy of the church. Imitate his method, not necessarily his conclusions--especially where additional theological work has now been done.&quot;

I don&#039;t know if that argument will wash, but I wonder if that might be what Benedict was getting at, since his remarks seem focused exclusively on Origen&#039;s &lt;em&gt;method&lt;/em&gt; rather than his &lt;em&gt;theology&lt;/em&gt; per se.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Aquilina is right and this represents a &#8220;rehabilitation&#8221; of Origen, I suspect there may be further clarification from Rome on that issue. I suppose the argument would be that (especially in De Principiis) Origen was not setting forth what he considered to be THE answers but, more speculatively, setting forth what he thought were some possibilities.</p>
<p>That might clear the way for saying, &#8220;Yeah, for apologetic purposes Origen set forth some pretty heretical ideas as possible interpretations of the nature of souls and their eschatological destiny. But that doesn&#8217;t make him a heretic, any more than asking difficult questions and exploring all the possibilities (based on the best information we have) makes one a heretic today. Remember: Origen&#8217;s <em>intent</em> was to remain within the consensual orthodoxy of the church. Imitate his method, not necessarily his conclusions&#8211;especially where additional theological work has now been done.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if that argument will wash, but I wonder if that might be what Benedict was getting at, since his remarks seem focused exclusively on Origen&#8217;s <em>method</em> rather than his <em>theology</em> per se.</p>
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		<title>By: JHearne</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2007/04/origen-not-just-for-heretics-anymore/comment-page-1/#comment-506</link>
		<dc:creator>JHearne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Apr 2007 19:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=352#comment-506</guid>
		<description>What about the whole apokatastasis thing? As long as I&#039;ve been studying Origen I&#039;ve loved his teachings on exegesis but I find his eschatology disturbing.

His method and theory are incredible and invaluable. That doesn&#039;t mean that he didn&#039;t err, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about the whole apokatastasis thing? As long as I&#8217;ve been studying Origen I&#8217;ve loved his teachings on exegesis but I find his eschatology disturbing.</p>
<p>His method and theory are incredible and invaluable. That doesn&#8217;t mean that he didn&#8217;t err, however.</p>
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