Comments on: Not True Churches?

By: >BIBLICAL STUDIES CARNIVAL XX | Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament

Sun, 08 Jan 2012 15:03:26 +0000

[...] gave rise to a series of blogs on this issue. The Pope’s comments were discussed by me here, by Darrell Pursiful, and by J. P. van de Giessen. Airton da Silva provided a list of Vatican documents that have been [...]

By: Connected Christianity » Blog Archive » Christian Reconciliation Carnival #7

Mon, 06 Aug 2007 04:54:21 +0000

[...] Scot McKnight (”The Pope on Protestant ‘churches’“) and yours truly (”Not True Churches?“), writing at Dr. [...]

By: JohnG

JohnG — Sun, 22 Jul 2007 13:14:14 +0000

I think it is great that the Pope came out and made a direct statement about this. I bet it came as a surprise to most Catholics that this was what they believe. They should come out with a pamphlet on a lot more things like this, since most Catholics never learn about this stuff when they are in the church (ex Catholic speaking here). Something like this could be included. We believe that Mary never ever had sex with her husband and never had any kids, but we don’t know why.

By: D. P.

D. P. — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:14:11 +0000

Kyle: As I said above, “I even appreciate his forthrightness in saying what he believes rather than hiding behind niceties that whitewash the serious ecumenical issues facing the church.” I mean it, therefore I don’t object to Benedict’s honesty about what he believes. We’re going to have to get to specifics if we’re going to have any kind of real ecumenism. And the more honest we’re going to be, the more humility will be required in expressing our convictions.

By: Kyle

Kyle — Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:25:04 +0000

Darrell, I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of how Protestants have been talking about RCs all along. I read the CDF’s statement and have two thoughts:

1) This is a re-iteration of Vatican II, and it should be remembered that this was an ecumenical milestone.

2) “Me, too.” If I believe apostolic succession to be part of the esse of the Church, any ecclesial community without it is lacking in some form or channel of grace. I also happen to believe that claims for papal infallibility and Petrine supremacy to be anti-catholic doctrines: all theology done in schism is by default heretical. Sorry, B16.

But at the same time, do we prefer a completely whitewashed ecumenism, in which we all claim to believe our churches are faulty and incomplete, but nobody’s allowed to suggest specifics? We don’t really care about truth when that’s the case.

By: PS

PS — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:02:14 +0000

The 90 year old widow of a Presbyterian pastor and her daughter joined our church (no Presb. church close by.) Last summer we had a discussion group about the Da Vinci Code, led by the pastor. The older woman said, “I’m glad I’m Lutheran. We can discuss these things rather than just be told that they are off limits.”

The one thing that Lutherans do well is to be comfortable with living in the tension of the paradoxes of life and faith.

By: D. P.

D. P. — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 17:39:40 +0000

PS: I grew up in an environment where it was assumed that Baptists had the “purest” form of doctrine and practice (from a New Testament standpoint)‚Äîso much so that other groups might not quite deserve to be called “churches” at all. In other words, very similar to what Catholic doctrine has been for centuries, just flipped 180 degrees!

I think that’s why I’m reacting the way I am. Sure, we all have convictions about the rightness of our particular faith traditions. If you didn’t agree that, in some sense, Lutheranism was “purer” (or whatever adjective you’d prefer to use) than the rest, you’d switch. That doesn’t keep you from holding your opinion in humility and seeking to learn from/interact with others.

As I said, I’m glad the Pope is being honest about what his church teaches. There is certainly nothing new here. I just wish we all could proceed with a bit more humility.

By: PS

PS — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:52:16 +0000

I also was dismayed, to put it mildly, at the pope’s statements. I’ve also heard the putdowns of Catholics and Lutherans by some other protestants. And I grew up with an understated assumption that Lutherans were somehow better than other groups. In fact, some Lutheran groups won’t allow other believers (even Lutherans) to partake of communion, without even finding out what their beliefs are. My own denomination’s website makes a very definite statement about the true church or belief system, but it does allow that there are true believers in other churches.

One would think we could see what we can learn from others and take what works for us, as long as it is Biblical.

By: Chris Duckworth

Chris Duckworth — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 16:13:30 +0000

I, too, was offended by the statement that my church is defective and is not a true church. Where’s the humility that the Pope traditionally shows on Holy Thursday as he washes the feet of prisoners? Statements such as this are unhelpful, to say the least.

I used to be of the camp that sought reunion with Rome – you know, looking admirably toward Rome, higher liturgics in an effort to look more Romish, and otherwise showing oodles of respect to Rome as a type of ideal church, a destination, or a wise parent.

It’s not simply a response to this statement, but I no longer hold Rome to be any sort of ideal. It’s just another expression of the church, arrogant and defective in its own way.

Thanks for your post.

By: D. P.

D. P. — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 14:54:24 +0000

Thanks, Claude. I read Vynette’s comments this morning. Quite interesting! (And I believe you are quite right to be doubtful the Catholic Church will express any willingness to learn from other Christians any time soon.)