Comments on: Seven Irrefutable Facts about the Table of Nations http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/ Darrell Pursiful's blog Wed, 08 Feb 2012 04:54:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: I Survived Armstrongism » Blog Archive » For Questeruk: British-Israelism http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-746 I Survived Armstrongism » Blog Archive » For Questeruk: British-Israelism Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:21:14 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=495#comment-746 [...] the comments left on the first blog, I also found another post debunking the Table of Nations. (This was promulgated in early YES lessons in the beginning of the 80s, and was also featured [...] [...] the comments left on the first blog, I also found another post debunking the Table of Nations. (This was promulgated in early YES lessons in the beginning of the 80s, and was also featured [...]

]]> By: D. P. http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-745 D. P. Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:58:23 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=495#comment-745 Thanks, Doc. Perhaps you'll notice that all of these laws about separating from Gentiles come after the Exodus and pertain to pagan religious practices, not to genealogy. And perhaps you'll also remember that King David's great-grandmother was a Moabite. Then perhaps you'll re-read that first heading and realize that my "irrefutable fact" is that "there is more than one way to become a 'son,'" a proposition in no way addressed by your comment, other than some nitpicking about one of my examples which, for whatever reason, you believe is at the center of my contention. Thanks, Doc. Perhaps you’ll notice that all of these laws about separating from Gentiles come after the Exodus and pertain to pagan religious practices, not to genealogy. And perhaps you’ll also remember that King David’s great-grandmother was a Moabite. Then perhaps you’ll re-read that first heading and realize that my “irrefutable fact” is that “there is more than one way to become a ‘son,’” a proposition in no way addressed by your comment, other than some nitpicking about one of my examples which, for whatever reason, you believe is at the center of my contention.

]]> By: Doc Brash http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-744 Doc Brash Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:57:15 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=495#comment-744 One should use caution when making statements like 'irrefutable facts' when some are refutable! Jesus Christ often corrected his critics with the statement, 'Have you not read' & also to the Sadducees concerning the resurrection of the dead, 'you know NEITHER the Scriptures nor the power of God.' They didn't read what the Scriptures SAID in context, which often solves 99% of interpretational issues. The examples below should be sufficient enough to turn irrefutable fact (#1) to refutable opinion & presumed conjecture. If you can show me from Scripture where you are right & I am wrong please do. You presume that the Israelites mixed with the mixed multitude & that the mixed multitude described the Israelites. Thus you make your conclusion. Is that what the Scriptures really say? And, was the practice of the Israelites to marry interracially or was interracial marriage condemned? Why was geneaology so critical in Jewish thought & life? What was the reason why the Yehudah (Jews) hated the Samaritans so? Ex 12:37,38, 40,42 Then the children of ISRAEL journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about 600,000 men on foot, besides children. And a mixed multitude went up ALSO WITH THEM; & flocks & herds, even very much cattle...Now the sojourn of the children of ISRAEL who lived in Egypt was 430 years. It is a night of solemn observance to the Lord for bringing THEM out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the Lord, a solemn observance for all the children of ISRAEL throughout THEIR generations. (Israel was NOT the mixed multitude, they came ALSO up WITH Israel) Gen 15:13 Then He said to Abram: "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs & will serve them & they will afflict them 400 years. Genesis 21:12,13 But God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased because of the lad & because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for THROUGH ISAAC shall your DESCENDANTS be named. And I will make 'a' nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring." Exodus 23:9 "Also you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the heart of a stranger, because you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Numbers 1:1,4,18 Now the Lord spoke to Moses in the Wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of meeting, on the 1st day of the 2nd month, in the 2nd year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, "Take a census of all the congregation of the children of ISRAEL, by THEIR families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male individually, from 20 years old & above (these are named from the 12 sons of Jacob as the context shows)...& they recited THEIR ANCESTRY by families... Numbers 11:1-6 Now when the people complained, it displeased the Lord; for the Lord heard it & His anger was aroused. So the fire of the Lord burned among them & consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. Then the people cried out to Moses & when Moses prayed to the Lord, the fire was quenched. So he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of the Lord had burned among them. Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again & said: "Who will give us meat to eat? We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions & the garlic; but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!'' Numbers 36:6 "This is what the Lord commands concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, `Let them marry whom they think best, but they may marry only within the family of their father's tribe.' Leviticus 17:8,10,15 "And you shall say to them: `Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the STRANGERS who sojourn AMONG YOU, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice & does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off from among his people. And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood & will cut him off from among HIS people. And every person who eats what died naturally or what was torn by beasts, whether he is a NATIVE of your OWN country or a STRANGER, he shall both wash his clothes & bathe in water & be unclean until evening. Then he shall be clean. Lev 19:34 The alien (stranger) living WITH YOU must be treated LIKE one of your NATIVE-BORN. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. Lev 20:2 "Say to the Israelites: `Any Israelite OR any alien living IN Israel (not of Israel or native-born in Egypt) who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. Leviticus 25:45 You may also buy some of the children of the temporary aliens (stangers) living among you & members of THEIR clans born in YOUR country & they will become your property. Joshua 8:35 There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, the little ones & the strangers who were living AMONG them. Deut 28:1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high ABOVE all the nations on earth. (blessing) vs (curse) 28:32 Your sons & daughters will be given to another nation & you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. Deut 7:3 Do not intermarry with them. (many nations of promised Land) Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods & the LORD's anger will burn against you & will quickly destroy you. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees & laws I give you today. Neh 10:29,30 All these now join their brothers the nobles & bind themselves with a curse & an oath to follow the Law of God given through Moses the servant of God & to obey carefully all the commands, regulations & decrees of the LORD our Lord. And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, nor take their daughters for our sons. Nehemiah 13:3, 27 So it was, when they had heard the Law, that they SEPARATED all the mixed multitude from Israel. Shall we then listen to you & do all this great evil & act treacherously against our God by marrying strange (foreign, alien) women?" Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to respond. One should use caution when making statements like ‘irrefutable facts’ when some are refutable! Jesus Christ often corrected his critics with the statement, ‘Have you not read’ & also to the Sadducees concerning the resurrection of the dead, ‘you know NEITHER the Scriptures nor the power of God.’ They didn’t read what the Scriptures SAID in context, which often solves 99% of interpretational issues. The examples below should be sufficient enough to turn irrefutable fact (#1) to refutable opinion & presumed conjecture. If you can show me from Scripture where you are right & I am wrong please do.

You presume that the Israelites mixed with the mixed multitude & that the mixed multitude described the Israelites. Thus you make your conclusion.

Is that what the Scriptures really say? And, was the practice of the Israelites to marry interracially or was interracial marriage condemned?
Why was geneaology so critical in Jewish thought & life? What was the reason why the Yehudah (Jews) hated the Samaritans so?

Ex 12:37,38, 40,42 Then the children of ISRAEL journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about 600,000 men on foot, besides children. And a mixed multitude went up ALSO WITH THEM; & flocks & herds, even very much cattle…Now the sojourn of the children of ISRAEL who lived in Egypt was 430 years. It is a night of solemn observance to the Lord for bringing THEM out of the land of Egypt. This is that night of the Lord, a solemn observance for all the children of ISRAEL throughout THEIR generations.
(Israel was NOT the mixed multitude, they came ALSO up WITH Israel)

Gen 15:13 Then He said to Abram: “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs & will serve them & they will afflict them 400 years.

Genesis 21:12,13 But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the lad & because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for THROUGH ISAAC shall your DESCENDANTS be named. And I will make ‘a’ nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring.”

Exodus 23:9 “Also you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the heart of a stranger, because you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Numbers 1:1,4,18 Now the Lord spoke to Moses in the Wilderness of Sinai, in the tabernacle of meeting, on the 1st day of the 2nd month, in the 2nd year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, “Take a census of all the congregation of the children of ISRAEL, by THEIR families, by their fathers’ houses, according to the number of names, every male individually, from 20 years old & above (these are named from the 12 sons of Jacob as the context shows)…& they recited THEIR ANCESTRY by families…

Numbers 11:1-6 Now when the people complained, it displeased the Lord; for the Lord heard it & His anger was aroused. So the fire of the Lord burned among them & consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. Then the people cried out to Moses & when Moses prayed to the Lord, the fire was quenched. So he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of the Lord had burned among them. Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again & said: “Who will give us meat to eat? We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions & the garlic; but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!”

Numbers 36:6 “This is what the Lord commands concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, `Let them marry whom they think best, but they may marry only within the family of their father’s tribe.’

Leviticus 17:8,10,15 “And you shall say to them: `Whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the STRANGERS who sojourn AMONG YOU, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice & does not bring it to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, to offer it to the Lord, that man shall be cut off from among his people. And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood & will cut him off from among HIS people. And every person who eats what died naturally or what was torn by beasts, whether he is a NATIVE of your OWN country or a STRANGER, he shall both wash his clothes & bathe in water & be unclean until evening. Then he shall be clean.

Lev 19:34 The alien (stranger) living WITH YOU must be treated LIKE one of your NATIVE-BORN. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:2 “Say to the Israelites: `Any Israelite OR any alien living IN Israel (not of Israel or native-born in Egypt) who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death.

Leviticus 25:45 You may also buy some of the children of the temporary aliens (stangers) living among you & members of THEIR clans born in YOUR country & they will become your property.

Joshua 8:35 There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the congregation of Israel, with the women, the little ones & the strangers who were living AMONG them.

Deut 28:1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the LORD your God will set you high ABOVE all the nations on earth. (blessing) vs (curse) 28:32 Your sons & daughters will be given to another nation & you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand.

Deut 7:3 Do not intermarry with them. (many nations of promised Land) Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods & the LORD’s anger will burn against you & will quickly destroy you. For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees & laws I give you today.

Neh 10:29,30 All these now join their brothers the nobles & bind themselves with a curse & an oath to follow the Law of God given through Moses the servant of God & to obey carefully all the commands, regulations & decrees of the LORD our Lord. And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, nor take their daughters for our sons.

Nehemiah 13:3, 27 So it was, when they had heard the Law, that they SEPARATED all the mixed multitude from Israel. Shall we then listen to you & do all this great evil & act treacherously against our God by marrying strange (foreign, alien) women?”

Thanks for allowing me the opportunity to respond.

]]> By: John Hobbins http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-743 John Hobbins Wed, 03 Oct 2007 21:25:12 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=495#comment-743 Thanks, D. P., for a post well done. I highlight it on my blog. Thanks, D. P., for a post well done. I highlight it on my blog.

]]> By: D. P. http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-742 D. P. Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:26:26 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=495#comment-742 Alas, I didn't have Smothers for OT. (Wish I had; he was great for Hebrew syntax). Most of this comes from Nahum Sarna and Walter Brueggemann. Alas, I didn’t have Smothers for OT. (Wish I had; he was great for Hebrew syntax). Most of this comes from Nahum Sarna and Walter Brueggemann.

]]> By: Michael Westmoreland-White http://pursiful.com/2007/10/seven-irrefutable-facts-about-the-table-of-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-741 Michael Westmoreland-White Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:35:22 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=495#comment-741 I remember doing a paper on biblical genealogies, including the Table of Nations, for Smothers' class on Genesis. Were you in that class? Because this sounds very familiar and I know I haven't looked at those particular notes or that finished paper since then. I remember doing a paper on biblical genealogies, including the Table of Nations, for Smothers’ class on Genesis. Were you in that class? Because this sounds very familiar and I know I haven’t looked at those particular notes or that finished paper since then.

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