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	<title>Comments on: How to Read the Bible like a Pagan</title>
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	<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/</link>
	<description>Darrell Pursiful&#039;s blog</description>
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		<title>By: Paul VanderKlay</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1307</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul VanderKlay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2009 17:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great post and discussion comments. The interchange btwn Darrell and Rob were helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post and discussion comments. The interchange btwn Darrell and Rob were helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell Pursiful</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1306</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell Pursiful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1306</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Rob. I&#039;ve moved our conversation on to &lt;a href=&quot;http://pursiful.com/?p=1489&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a post of its own&lt;/a&gt;, where I hope we can continue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Rob. I&#8217;ve moved our conversation on to <a href="http://pursiful.com/?p=1489" rel="nofollow">a post of its own</a>, where I hope we can continue.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob McKee</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1305</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob McKee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 05:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1305</guid>
		<description>Darrell, I&#039;ve a busy day today (8h05 in Nairobi as I write), but I wanted to add one thing.

I&#039;m very glad to see you&#039;re interested in building an &quot;authentic Christian, biblical theology&quot; and not an African or Western or any other one. One thing I&#039;ve heard some African theologians reported as saying is, &#039;Leave us free to do our own ethno-theologizing!&#039; For any continental or other-level culture to say that is a danger sign to me. We can and should learn from one another within the Church worldwide, including what in our own cultures, American and Western definitely included, might indeed be errant nonsense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darrell, I&#8217;ve a busy day today (8h05 in Nairobi as I write), but I wanted to add one thing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m very glad to see you&#8217;re interested in building an &#8220;authentic Christian, biblical theology&#8221; and not an African or Western or any other one. One thing I&#8217;ve heard some African theologians reported as saying is, &#8216;Leave us free to do our own ethno-theologizing!&#8217; For any continental or other-level culture to say that is a danger sign to me. We can and should learn from one another within the Church worldwide, including what in our own cultures, American and Western definitely included, might indeed be errant nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell Pursiful</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1304</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell Pursiful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1304</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the probing questions, Rob. I think I&#039;ll bump your comment up to a post of its own later today so others can weigh in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the probing questions, Rob. I think I&#8217;ll bump your comment up to a post of its own later today so others can weigh in.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob McKee</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1303</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob McKee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1303</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re in agreement so far, Darrell - assuming it&#039;s a DEMON behind your rock, and not an Adioukrou divinity or Mangbetu forest spirit or such, neither of which, I&#039;ll insist, is the same thing as the demon.

For your benefit, part of the reason I want to clearly understand you and Imasogie both is that I&#039;ve lived for lengthy periods in two African countries (Congo/Zaire and Kenya) where I think it can matter very much just how/how exactly ontologically real malevolent spiritual entities are construed by different cultures.

All I can manage today on Nairobi time.

With my best regards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re in agreement so far, Darrell &#8211; assuming it&#8217;s a DEMON behind your rock, and not an Adioukrou divinity or Mangbetu forest spirit or such, neither of which, I&#8217;ll insist, is the same thing as the demon.</p>
<p>For your benefit, part of the reason I want to clearly understand you and Imasogie both is that I&#8217;ve lived for lengthy periods in two African countries (Congo/Zaire and Kenya) where I think it can matter very much just how/how exactly ontologically real malevolent spiritual entities are construed by different cultures.</p>
<p>All I can manage today on Nairobi time.</p>
<p>With my best regards.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell Pursiful</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1302</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell Pursiful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1302</guid>
		<description>I agree that that is clearly what the Israelites did. It sounds like you think that is what Imasogie is doing. If so, I disagree.

I would ask, Did not Jesus face conflict with &lt;em&gt;real&lt;/em&gt; spiritual entities, commonly called &quot;demons&quot; or &quot;unclean/evil spirits,&quot; throughout the Synoptic Gospels, and were not the people of the New Testament therefore rightly concerned with the possibility that these entities might adversely affect their lives? If so, then might it be possible to build an authentic Christian, biblical theology that affirms that such entities are in fact real, and that Christ has won a decisive victory over them through his cross and resurrection?

Christians—African or otherwise—don&#039;t need to start looking for demons behind every rock, but if there&#039;s a demon behind &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; rock, it&#039;s good to know that Jesus—and not rituals and superstitions of human design—is the answer to getting rid of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that that is clearly what the Israelites did. It sounds like you think that is what Imasogie is doing. If so, I disagree.</p>
<p>I would ask, Did not Jesus face conflict with <em>real</em> spiritual entities, commonly called &#8220;demons&#8221; or &#8220;unclean/evil spirits,&#8221; throughout the Synoptic Gospels, and were not the people of the New Testament therefore rightly concerned with the possibility that these entities might adversely affect their lives? If so, then might it be possible to build an authentic Christian, biblical theology that affirms that such entities are in fact real, and that Christ has won a decisive victory over them through his cross and resurrection?</p>
<p>Christians—African or otherwise—don&#8217;t need to start looking for demons behind every rock, but if there&#8217;s a demon behind <em>my</em> rock, it&#8217;s good to know that Jesus—and not rituals and superstitions of human design—is the answer to getting rid of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob McKee</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1301</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob McKee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1301</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your response, Darrell.

Since we may be talking past each other to some extent, let&#039;s take it step by step.

First, did Aaron not, in Exodus 32, create for Israel the god whom the people evidently wanted to establish as the one who brought them out of Israel? Similarly, are the gods/idols spoken of in Psalm 115 and Jeremiah 10 not clearly the deaf, dumb, and blind creations of men? What problem, then, with the idea that a people might create its divinities and such?

I suspect we&#039;re in agreement thus far, but maybe not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your response, Darrell.</p>
<p>Since we may be talking past each other to some extent, let&#8217;s take it step by step.</p>
<p>First, did Aaron not, in Exodus 32, create for Israel the god whom the people evidently wanted to establish as the one who brought them out of Israel? Similarly, are the gods/idols spoken of in Psalm 115 and Jeremiah 10 not clearly the deaf, dumb, and blind creations of men? What problem, then, with the idea that a people might create its divinities and such?</p>
<p>I suspect we&#8217;re in agreement thus far, but maybe not.</p>
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		<title>By: Darrell Pursiful</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1300</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell Pursiful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1300</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments, Rob. I&#039;m at a loss, however, to see how anyone is &quot;creating&quot; divinities. If it is true that malevolent spiritual entities exist, however they are construed (and I think a quick look at the Gospels will confirm that this assertion is certainly biblically defensible) then it is reasonable to ask how the gospel addresses this reality. And it&#039;s not by excusing peoples&#039; &quot;biblically illegitimate cultural creations&quot;—that is precisely what Imasogie and others are trying to avoid!—but by holding up Christ alone as victorious over every principality and power. I think you can find that theme in the New Testament as well.

So if people in Africa and elsewhere do what Imasogie suggest, it will wean people away from indigenous magical practices and toward Christocentric strategies for dealing with the reality of evil, and our respective mothers and grandmothers will have nothing to worry about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Rob. I&#8217;m at a loss, however, to see how anyone is &#8220;creating&#8221; divinities. If it is true that malevolent spiritual entities exist, however they are construed (and I think a quick look at the Gospels will confirm that this assertion is certainly biblically defensible) then it is reasonable to ask how the gospel addresses this reality. And it&#8217;s not by excusing peoples&#8217; &#8220;biblically illegitimate cultural creations&#8221;—that is precisely what Imasogie and others are trying to avoid!—but by holding up Christ alone as victorious over every principality and power. I think you can find that theme in the New Testament as well.</p>
<p>So if people in Africa and elsewhere do what Imasogie suggest, it will wean people away from indigenous magical practices and toward Christocentric strategies for dealing with the reality of evil, and our respective mothers and grandmothers will have nothing to worry about.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob McKee</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1299</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob McKee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Mar 2009 05:53:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1299</guid>
		<description>As a Christian anthropologist, I believe Platypus et al. sadly mistaken. Our God-given cultural mandate doesn&#039;t give us the right to create divinities, a vital force, etc., any more than it gave ancient Israel the right to create the god it did in Exodus 32. In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul repeats the Old Testament point that an idol is nothing, and adds that it&#039;s the strength of enculturation re. idols that has people keep insisting on their reality. The Church in the West/industrialized world does have things to learn from the Church in Africa; however, no one is doing a favor to the Church in Africa or Africa generally by praising their biblically-illegitimate cultural creations, which can and do result in things like red-eyed, octogenarian women (like my own grandmother and mother, eh?) being burned to death for alleged witchcraft. The &#039;reality&#039; of the witchcraft concerned is one of the 2 Corinthians 10 strongholds the Church needs to demolish, not by killing the people we sinfully mistake as witches, but rather by (1) confessing and debunking the man-made ideas concerned and (2) trusting in the authority of Christ&#039;s name to defeat the demonic/satanic that delights in using such lies to keep even Christians in bondage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a Christian anthropologist, I believe Platypus et al. sadly mistaken. Our God-given cultural mandate doesn&#8217;t give us the right to create divinities, a vital force, etc., any more than it gave ancient Israel the right to create the god it did in Exodus 32. In 1 Corinthians 8, Paul repeats the Old Testament point that an idol is nothing, and adds that it&#8217;s the strength of enculturation re. idols that has people keep insisting on their reality. The Church in the West/industrialized world does have things to learn from the Church in Africa; however, no one is doing a favor to the Church in Africa or Africa generally by praising their biblically-illegitimate cultural creations, which can and do result in things like red-eyed, octogenarian women (like my own grandmother and mother, eh?) being burned to death for alleged witchcraft. The &#8216;reality&#8217; of the witchcraft concerned is one of the 2 Corinthians 10 strongholds the Church needs to demolish, not by killing the people we sinfully mistake as witches, but rather by (1) confessing and debunking the man-made ideas concerned and (2) trusting in the authority of Christ&#8217;s name to defeat the demonic/satanic that delights in using such lies to keep even Christians in bondage.</p>
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		<title>By: Cate</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/02/how-to-read-the-bible-like-a-pagan/comment-page-1/#comment-1298</link>
		<dc:creator>Cate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1391#comment-1298</guid>
		<description>Ironically, as a western (Australian) Christian, I find myself easily able to understand a world view where secular and sacred is not separated, and I can&#039;t get my head around the view of many people in my community who separate them.

Makes conversation about God entirely confusing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ironically, as a western (Australian) Christian, I find myself easily able to understand a world view where secular and sacred is not separated, and I can&#8217;t get my head around the view of many people in my community who separate them.</p>
<p>Makes conversation about God entirely confusing!</p>
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