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	<title>Comments on: A Hermeneutical Key to the Book of Hebrews 2</title>
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	<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/05/a-hermeneutical-key-to-the-book-of-hebrews-2/</link>
	<description>Darrell Pursiful&#039;s blog</description>
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		<title>By: Darrell Pursiful</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/05/a-hermeneutical-key-to-the-book-of-hebrews-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1380</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell Pursiful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1583#comment-1380</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re quite welcome, Anne.

I&#039;ve written up some of my research on pre-Constantinian worship in a series of posts beginning at http://pursiful.com/?p=76. What you have may be an early draft of that material.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re quite welcome, Anne.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written up some of my research on pre-Constantinian worship in a series of posts beginning at <a href="http://pursiful.com/?p=76" rel="nofollow">http://pursiful.com/?p=76</a>. What you have may be an early draft of that material.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Mikkola</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/05/a-hermeneutical-key-to-the-book-of-hebrews-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1379</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Mikkola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1583#comment-1379</guid>
		<description>Thanks Darrell for these 1,2,3,4 posts. It&#039;s been nice daily sets of ideas to ponder.  These statuslessness and liminality ideas are interesting, and new to me - make a lot of sense.
You have given me another way of looking at things. You are very right about the biographical thing. This is the kind of thing that only future experiences can help resolve. But thanks to you, I now have another way of looking at rituals, and Hebrews.
By the way, I quess we discussed this already 8 years ago, because you had sent me a text titled: &#039;pre-constantinian worship patterns&#039; or something like that. Is that your writing by the way. It did not have the author.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Darrell for these 1,2,3,4 posts. It&#8217;s been nice daily sets of ideas to ponder.  These statuslessness and liminality ideas are interesting, and new to me &#8211; make a lot of sense.<br />
You have given me another way of looking at things. You are very right about the biographical thing. This is the kind of thing that only future experiences can help resolve. But thanks to you, I now have another way of looking at rituals, and Hebrews.<br />
By the way, I quess we discussed this already 8 years ago, because you had sent me a text titled: &#8216;pre-constantinian worship patterns&#8217; or something like that. Is that your writing by the way. It did not have the author.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Darrell Pursiful</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/05/a-hermeneutical-key-to-the-book-of-hebrews-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1378</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrell Pursiful</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 12:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1583#comment-1378</guid>
		<description>Good thoughts, Anne. Thanks for sharing. I suppose a lot of how one sees these things is biographical. If you&#039;ve never experienced liturgy done well (with warmth, spontaneity, etc.—see my linked post on keva and kavvanah), it&#039;s very easy to see only the restrictive elements. If you&#039;ve never seen charismatic experience grounded with intellectual rigor (I&#039;m thinking about scholars like Gordon Fee and, to a certain extent, James D. G. Dunn), one might toss all charismatics/Pentecostals into the &quot;rabid emotionalism&quot; bin.

You ask, &quot;Did God create rituals, or people invented them in search for security other than God?&quot; I would say, &quot;God created humans as incarnated beings who only thrive when soul, mind, and body are vitally engaged.&quot; That means humans will always find outward, tangible, visible ways to express what matters most to them. Some humans forget that the forms are only pointers to deeper values; others remember, and let the values judge the forms. Anthropologically, I&#039;m at a loss to think of a single human culture that has not developed rituals of some kind through which to symbolize and enact their shared values. It&#039;s no shame to say that Christians do the same, and that God can be in the process.

Strictly from the standpoint of the book of Hebrews, I think the author envisioned the Christian experience as one of ongoing liminality that does not end until the eschaton. But once again, humans being what they are, I don&#039;t know how we can perpetuate this continuous sense of liminality without regularly scheduled liminal periods—be they weekly liturgies, prayer retreats, Lenten fasts, or whatever. As I wrote above, we&#039;ll always have rituals, so let&#039;s just make sure we choose them well!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good thoughts, Anne. Thanks for sharing. I suppose a lot of how one sees these things is biographical. If you&#8217;ve never experienced liturgy done well (with warmth, spontaneity, etc.—see my linked post on keva and kavvanah), it&#8217;s very easy to see only the restrictive elements. If you&#8217;ve never seen charismatic experience grounded with intellectual rigor (I&#8217;m thinking about scholars like Gordon Fee and, to a certain extent, James D. G. Dunn), one might toss all charismatics/Pentecostals into the &#8220;rabid emotionalism&#8221; bin.</p>
<p>You ask, &#8220;Did God create rituals, or people invented them in search for security other than God?&#8221; I would say, &#8220;God created humans as incarnated beings who only thrive when soul, mind, and body are vitally engaged.&#8221; That means humans will always find outward, tangible, visible ways to express what matters most to them. Some humans forget that the forms are only pointers to deeper values; others remember, and let the values judge the forms. Anthropologically, I&#8217;m at a loss to think of a single human culture that has not developed rituals of some kind through which to symbolize and enact their shared values. It&#8217;s no shame to say that Christians do the same, and that God can be in the process.</p>
<p>Strictly from the standpoint of the book of Hebrews, I think the author envisioned the Christian experience as one of ongoing liminality that does not end until the eschaton. But once again, humans being what they are, I don&#8217;t know how we can perpetuate this continuous sense of liminality without regularly scheduled liminal periods—be they weekly liturgies, prayer retreats, Lenten fasts, or whatever. As I wrote above, we&#8217;ll always have rituals, so let&#8217;s just make sure we choose them well!</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Mikkola</title>
		<link>http://pursiful.com/2009/05/a-hermeneutical-key-to-the-book-of-hebrews-2/comment-page-1/#comment-1377</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Mikkola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 03:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pursiful.com/?p=1583#comment-1377</guid>
		<description>After reading the Baer article, my first thoughts:
His arguments on functional similarities are convincing to me and will be helpful I believe in trying to figure out my view on rituals.  Thanks!!

 But then the question arises about the role of intellect. It is assumed - without questioning - that analytical intellect prevents the divine reality from being communicated. I dare question this assumed trade-off.  Just like rituals may gain more of a place than they should, the same way intellect can become too central. But God created intellect in us, but did he create rituals in us? Or did rituals come after the Fall, so to speak. It is typical emphasis in pentecostal circles and more generally church settings- or manipulative power structures - to deemphasize intellect and thinking. It is interesting how Baer talks about the infallibility of the Pope or the inerrancy of the Word as other ways of &#039;surpassing the intellect&#039; in order to experience the presence and power of the Spirit. Then he asks if the intellectual price might be too high in these cases. Charismatics often throw away intellect and with it the Word too in any real sense. They experience the &#039;Presence&#039;, but sometimes the fruit of that Presence are not very convincing to me - to put it mildly.

I am tempted to merge all these Baer categories into one - as equally potentially harmful, or alternatively equally helpful. Speaking in toungues is however quite different from liturgical services. The latter are usually much more dominating in church services than the glossolalia in charismatic circles. But comparing the whole &#039;charismatic arsenal&#039; to the liturgical arsenal might be somewhat more equally balanced comparison. So, I am thinking if there might be 2 equally heavy evils, namely:
1) the full-blown charismatic &#039;experience the Spirit of God&#039; arsenal with all its &#039;spirit liturgy&#039; which denies intellect and doesnt care much for people in their earthly existence, justice issues etc. (compare 1 Cor)
2) the liturgical experience which does the same (denies gifts of the spirit and intellect) and holds God captive in the temples.

Both try to put experience of the Spirit in some narrow box that is separate from our lives. Your justification for rituals sees this separation as a positive - somehow fundamentally human thing. I am wondering if Jesus might have tried to turn the &#039;rituals&#039; more into every day experiences, by e.g. the communion meal. Every time you eat and drink - type of thing.

 If rituals help the Spirit to gain more &#039;full-time&#039; access into our daily lives then I suppose they would be good, but if they separate Spirit into the outer space- experience box, and keep Him/Her there, they are comparable to witchcraft whereby rituals or spiritual gifts become tools of manipulation.

Did God create rituals, or people invented them in search for security other than God? The fact that all humans in all times have rituals, is not any better a justification than saying that in all times women have been subordinated so that must have been God&#039;s purpose for genders.

Liminality (?) thing is a good sounding argument, but isnt there some time issue. Rites of transition, like weddings, are one-time events while the Christian liminality is ever continuing thing (ideally!?). If rituals are good in weddings, does it follow that they are good every Sunday? Why not then make the whole life a ritual? Then when does the Christian live, use her intellect, and make a difference in this world? Isnt this the very problem of Christian church - separation of the holy sphere from the non-holy? The main tools of this separation: charismatic experiences and &#039;superior spirituality&#039;, liturgical ritual centeredness, clergy (=ritual experts) centeredness etc?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading the Baer article, my first thoughts:<br />
His arguments on functional similarities are convincing to me and will be helpful I believe in trying to figure out my view on rituals.  Thanks!!</p>
<p> But then the question arises about the role of intellect. It is assumed &#8211; without questioning &#8211; that analytical intellect prevents the divine reality from being communicated. I dare question this assumed trade-off.  Just like rituals may gain more of a place than they should, the same way intellect can become too central. But God created intellect in us, but did he create rituals in us? Or did rituals come after the Fall, so to speak. It is typical emphasis in pentecostal circles and more generally church settings- or manipulative power structures &#8211; to deemphasize intellect and thinking. It is interesting how Baer talks about the infallibility of the Pope or the inerrancy of the Word as other ways of &#8216;surpassing the intellect&#8217; in order to experience the presence and power of the Spirit. Then he asks if the intellectual price might be too high in these cases. Charismatics often throw away intellect and with it the Word too in any real sense. They experience the &#8216;Presence&#8217;, but sometimes the fruit of that Presence are not very convincing to me &#8211; to put it mildly.</p>
<p>I am tempted to merge all these Baer categories into one &#8211; as equally potentially harmful, or alternatively equally helpful. Speaking in toungues is however quite different from liturgical services. The latter are usually much more dominating in church services than the glossolalia in charismatic circles. But comparing the whole &#8216;charismatic arsenal&#8217; to the liturgical arsenal might be somewhat more equally balanced comparison. So, I am thinking if there might be 2 equally heavy evils, namely:<br />
1) the full-blown charismatic &#8216;experience the Spirit of God&#8217; arsenal with all its &#8216;spirit liturgy&#8217; which denies intellect and doesnt care much for people in their earthly existence, justice issues etc. (compare 1 Cor)<br />
2) the liturgical experience which does the same (denies gifts of the spirit and intellect) and holds God captive in the temples.</p>
<p>Both try to put experience of the Spirit in some narrow box that is separate from our lives. Your justification for rituals sees this separation as a positive &#8211; somehow fundamentally human thing. I am wondering if Jesus might have tried to turn the &#8216;rituals&#8217; more into every day experiences, by e.g. the communion meal. Every time you eat and drink &#8211; type of thing.</p>
<p> If rituals help the Spirit to gain more &#8216;full-time&#8217; access into our daily lives then I suppose they would be good, but if they separate Spirit into the outer space- experience box, and keep Him/Her there, they are comparable to witchcraft whereby rituals or spiritual gifts become tools of manipulation.</p>
<p>Did God create rituals, or people invented them in search for security other than God? The fact that all humans in all times have rituals, is not any better a justification than saying that in all times women have been subordinated so that must have been God&#8217;s purpose for genders.</p>
<p>Liminality (?) thing is a good sounding argument, but isnt there some time issue. Rites of transition, like weddings, are one-time events while the Christian liminality is ever continuing thing (ideally!?). If rituals are good in weddings, does it follow that they are good every Sunday? Why not then make the whole life a ritual? Then when does the Christian live, use her intellect, and make a difference in this world? Isnt this the very problem of Christian church &#8211; separation of the holy sphere from the non-holy? The main tools of this separation: charismatic experiences and &#8216;superior spirituality&#8217;, liturgical ritual centeredness, clergy (=ritual experts) centeredness etc?</p>
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