Comments on: A Liturgy from the Book of Hebrews 3 http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/ Darrell Pursiful's blog Mon, 14 May 2012 13:24:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: PS(anafter-thought) http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1417 PS(anafter-thought) Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:01:40 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1417 Exactly, and you said it more succinctly. :-) Exactly, and you said it more succinctly. :-)

]]> By: Darrell Pursiful http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1416 Darrell Pursiful Mon, 22 Jun 2009 19:39:00 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1416 Thanks, PS. You've put your finger on two (perhaps related) problems: (1) members of liturgical churches who don't understand their worship (and thus fail to be truly transformed by it) because they've somehow missed the necessary biblical background, and (2) members of non-liturgical churches who dismiss the idea of liturgical worship because they've never taken the time to understand the biblical roots not only of its language but its very rationale. Both groups need pastors and religious educators who will make solid worship education a priority. Thanks, PS. You’ve put your finger on two (perhaps related) problems: (1) members of liturgical churches who don’t understand their worship (and thus fail to be truly transformed by it) because they’ve somehow missed the necessary biblical background, and (2) members of non-liturgical churches who dismiss the idea of liturgical worship because they’ve never taken the time to understand the biblical roots not only of its language but its very rationale. Both groups need pastors and religious educators who will make solid worship education a priority.

]]> By: PS(anafter-thought) http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1415 PS(anafter-thought) Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:01:36 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1415 I found this very interesting. I grew up Lutheran and the liturgy just WAS. It just was in the book, every Lutheran hymnal that I've seen, but there was never any scriptural references listed, as you listed them. In contrast, when I've visited neighboring non-liturgical churches, I've often seen scriptural references listed with hymns and some suggested prayers/readings. In the last several years, our church bulletin and the hymnals have shown section headings, like you used, that have helped me understand the parts and purpose of the liturgy. Since I'm in the choir, I've also learned from the extra practice we've had for some of the parts that are sung. But it seems to me that the purposes and scriptural references for the parts of the liturgy should be more obvious to people who might be new to this form of worship. Our pastor has mentioned that sometimes people from a non-liturgical background might have a nose-in-the-air attitude regarding liturgical worship, but when they attend, they may be surprised to learn that the service is very scriptural based. They may actually understand that better than a Lutheran pew sitter who isn't Biblically literate. The repetition of the liturgy each week can become too rote. But it is also like the family who gathers for a glad event who tell the family stories over and over and the family memory is strengthened and the stories are passed down to the young ones. If this is the case, then we need to view liturgy as both WORSHIP of God, and therefore properly worshipful, and also simple enough to convey just why we are worshiping this great God of Grace to any new and young attendees. When we have a baptism, as we did yesterday, there are always family members present. It is often obvious that some are unchurched and some are, perhaps, non liturgical in background. I always wonder what they are thinking and getting out of our worship service. I found this very interesting. I grew up Lutheran and the liturgy just WAS. It just was in the book, every Lutheran hymnal that I’ve seen, but there was never any scriptural references listed, as you listed them. In contrast, when I’ve visited neighboring non-liturgical churches, I’ve often seen scriptural references listed with hymns and some suggested prayers/readings.

In the last several years, our church bulletin and the hymnals have shown section headings, like you used, that have helped me understand the parts and purpose of the liturgy. Since I’m in the choir, I’ve also learned from the extra practice we’ve had for some of the parts that are sung. But it seems to me that the purposes and scriptural references for the parts of the liturgy should be more obvious to people who might be new to this form of worship.

Our pastor has mentioned that sometimes people from a non-liturgical background might have a nose-in-the-air attitude regarding liturgical worship, but when they attend, they may be surprised to learn that the service is very scriptural based. They may actually understand that better than a Lutheran pew sitter who isn’t Biblically literate.

The repetition of the liturgy each week can become too rote. But it is also like the family who gathers for a glad event who tell the family stories over and over and the family memory is strengthened and the stories are passed down to the young ones. If this is the case, then we need to view liturgy as both WORSHIP of God, and therefore properly worshipful, and also simple enough to convey just why we are worshiping this great God of Grace to any new and young attendees.

When we have a baptism, as we did yesterday, there are always family members present. It is often obvious that some are unchurched and some are, perhaps, non liturgical in background. I always wonder what they are thinking and getting out of our worship service.

]]> By: Anne http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1414 Anne Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:01:30 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1414 Hmm, that last was badly phrased, maybe should've been "liturgy is still a living art form of how to worship in the words of Scriptures". Hmm, that last was badly phrased, maybe should’ve been “liturgy is still a living art form of how to worship in the words of Scriptures”.

]]> By: Anne http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1413 Anne Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:00:29 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1413 Well, y'know, the book of Hebrews is big. It would take awhile to be satisfied with the prayer section. not gonna happen in a first draft. I found myself thumbing through Hebrews today thinking, "Isn't there a proper *confession* anywhere?" Lots of "I repent" stuff, but where's the "I blew it" part of a proper confession? But the book of Hebrews is far more about Christ than anything else ... At any rate, I've been excited, watching from the sidelines, seeing some of that vision vision of liturgy take shape and take root here. For your friend who mentioned he isn't "convinced", I was like "Convinced? Were we arguing? I just think liturgy is still a living art form of how to worship the Scriptures". Take care & God bless Anne / WF Well, y’know, the book of Hebrews is big. It would take awhile to be satisfied with the prayer section. not gonna happen in a first draft.

I found myself thumbing through Hebrews today thinking, “Isn’t there a proper *confession* anywhere?” Lots of “I repent” stuff, but where’s the “I blew it” part of a proper confession? But the book of Hebrews is far more about Christ than anything else …

At any rate, I’ve been excited, watching from the sidelines, seeing some of that vision vision of liturgy take shape and take root here. For your friend who mentioned he isn’t “convinced”, I was like “Convinced? Were we arguing? I just think liturgy is still a living art form of how to worship the Scriptures”.

Take care & God bless
Anne / WF

]]> By: Darrell Pursiful http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1412 Darrell Pursiful Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:43:30 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1412 Thanks, Anne. I appreciate your comment about the prayers. It's the one section I'm not entirely satisfied with. I doubt anybody will be using this liturgy any time soon, although perhaps if my pastor still lurks here occasionally you never know when a familiar turn of phrase may show up. Thanks, Anne. I appreciate your comment about the prayers. It’s the one section I’m not entirely satisfied with. I doubt anybody will be using this liturgy any time soon, although perhaps if my pastor still lurks here occasionally you never know when a familiar turn of phrase may show up.

]]> By: Anne http://pursiful.com/2009/06/a-liturgy-from-the-book-of-hebrews-3/comment-page-1/#comment-1411 Anne Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:17:56 +0000 http://pursiful.com/?p=1674#comment-1411 You nailed it on my vision for the prayers. My vision is to let the original text set the agenda. So can we hope to see this in a worship service anytime soon? Take care & God bless Anne / WF You nailed it on my vision for the prayers. My vision is to let the original text set the agenda.

So can we hope to see this in a worship service anytime soon?

Take care & God bless
Anne / WF

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